How to Tie a Tent Stake Knot
0 reviewer rep | 181 forum posts
2:06 p.m. on October 16, 2006 (EDT)
I would like to know what everyone uses to attach guy lines to tent loops? Looks like a simple Bowline would do, but any other single loop knots, or is there some little piece of hardware that works better?
Bill S REVIEW CORPS 4,552 reviewer rep | 6,037 forum posts
4:25 p.m. on October 16, 2006 (EDT)
Knotty question!
Since there are 2 ends to the guy line, you need 2 different attachments. One end is a more or less fixed loop, while the other should allow adjustment.
There is an ongoing debate whether the adjustable end should be on the tent end or on the tentstake end. I tend to prefer the adjustable end to be the one through the loop on the tent, with the "fixed" loop being the one attaching to the tent stake/deadman/log/boulder/whatever.
You can tie a bowline for the fixed loop, if you want. But you can also tie a figure 8 on a bight, or an overhand loop, or a slip knot, or, two half hitches, or, ... or, ... or, ... whatever gives you a loop.
On the adjustable end, the knot that works best is a tautline hitch. This is basically 2 half hitches with an extra turn. Look in just about any knots book, or in your Boy Scout handbook. Even if you use one of the little "super adjustable plastic/metal thingies" ("thingie" is a technical term, just like "widget" or "thingamabob" or "doohickie", and usually has a very high markup, making for a huge profit for the dealer), the tautline is a good knot to learn. The "thingies" get lost or break easily, leaving you to figure out how to tie some sort of knot. If you don't have some means of adjustment, your tent will never have that nice, taut, perfectly pitched look you see in the ads and magazine articles. Well, no real tent pitched in a real location for a real backpack or campout ever looks as neatly pitched as in the ads.
There are all sorts of "adjustment thingies" available. Basically, all they are is a short (0.5 inch to 1 inch) strip of metal/plastic/wood with two holes in it, one at either end. You thread one end of your guy line through one hole, then through the tent loop (if you want the adjustment at the tent end, as I prefer - if you want it at the stake, skip this step), then back through the other hole. Finish by tying a "stopper" knot of some kind in the end of the guy line. "Stopper" knots include a simple overhand, a "half-fisherman's", capucine knot, "half-double" or "half-triple" fisherman's, or anything that will keep the cord from slipping back through the hole. You can even tie a turk's-head if so inclined.
Point is, you can be as simple or fancy as you want. Simplest is just tie the guyline one end to the tent and the other to the stake or whatever. THERE IS NO, I REPEAT, NO OFFICIAL SANCTIONED WAY OF ATTACHING GUY LINES BETWEEN TENTS AND STAKES! Be stylish, or anti-stylish. Express your inner artistic, free-thinking, non-conformist feelings.
Mostly, stop worrying so much about what's right and wrong in the woods and hills - just get out there and do it!
Chumango 0 reviewer rep | 82 forum posts
5:16 p.m. on October 16, 2006 (EDT)
Re: Knotty question!
Taut line (for the adjustable end).
Out of all the knots, this is the one I use the most for many purposes, but it is especially useful for tents and tarps.
I teach my scouts many knots, but truth be told, only a couple will suffice for almost everything.
Blackbeard 0 reviewer rep | 181 forum posts
7:25 p.m. on October 16, 2006 (EDT)
Re: Knotty question!
Bill,
I don't really worry so much, really. This was mostly about asking for a better way than just tying a rope to a loop on the tent. They have such neat little gizmos now, and the older tent I have seems to have a lot of tension on the loops. I don't know what is out there, and maybe I'll come up with something inventive if I think it needs it (elastic maybe). My old tent used rubber balls and what looked like shower curtain loops instead of grommets to attach the fly. It was not a full coverage fly, by the way. That really distributed the stess across a wide area instead of a grommet's area. Just wondering about things like that. And this is a 35 year old tent! Now whether is was designed to be that way, or it's just the way the original owner figured out how to use the fly in a better way, I don't know. But why reinvent the wheel, especially when someone may have a better idea to share. Have you tried to find anything on guy line connectors at any of the online stores? Most of these places just have the main gear. It just looks to me that the zippers and guy loops might be the weakest link in a tent.
I've really tried to be quiet on this list lately. Anyway, as soon as I throw together some pots, I think I'll venture out and see how far this all goes. I'm sure once I get started, I'll make up my own ways. Then - no more stupid worrisome-like questions I hope.
Thanks
Bill S REVIEW CORPS 4,552 reviewer rep | 6,037 forum posts
9:00 p.m. on October 16, 2006 (EDT)
Re: Knotty question!
Steve -
Remember that I'm just kidding you. Can't help it, having just gotten back from our Mountain Man Rendezvous (re-enactment weekend for a Scout district camporee). Barb and I just do the re-enactment thing a few times a year at one of the State Historical Parks and at Scout events. But some of the people do it as their main hobby. So we get to spend some weekends with (pretend) crusty old backwoods types, who have a warped sense of humor. Which is loads of fun. One of my specialties is telling tall tales, which should warn you not to take my comments too seriously.
On the attachments to the tent - the ball and shower-curtain attachment method is used often when replacing rainflies with a tarp or piece of plastic that does not have grommets or sewn loops. It works pretty well, actually.
You are right that zippers are a major weak point in tents. Guy lines are usually not too much of a weak point in quality tents, but are in mass-market tents (along with cheap poles). All that is really needed for a guy line is "parachute cord", or any accessory cord more than 4 or 5 mm in diameter that is made of nylon, perlon, or related synthetics (we use manila rope for period-correct guylines on period-correct tents, usually 3/8 inch). It's always a good idea to have a 50-ft hank of cord just in case a guy line breaks from someone tripping over it.
The attachment points can be a weak spot. Nylon in particular is subject to UV deterioration (just like human skin without sunblock!) and will "rot". That is, it will weaken and eventually give way, with guy straps or grommets pulling out. At that point, replace the fly or just get a new tent.
As I noted, and Chumango reiterated, the main knot you need for guy lines is the tautline hitch. It allows you to adjust the tension to suit where you had to locate the tent and its stakes (or other tie-down points). The other end of the guy is usually attached with a static knot, which can be basically anything - bowline if you want to be fancy, clove hitch, 2 half hitches, slip knot, figure 8 on a bight, whatever. It doesn't matter. As I said, I prefer after years of trying both ways to attach the adjustable end to the tent and fly loops/grommets/attach points and the static knot to the tie-down point.
But what's this about lying low and lurking? You are a full member of the group, and are not allowed to hide in the bushes. Keep posting! And don't worry about OGBO's silly kidding. This is supposed to be fun. Yeah, I know, some people take their hiking and camping deadly serious. I don't go camping with that type, cause I wanna have fun and enjoy the outdoors. Ya know, if God had intended for us to be super serious and ultra intense, he wouldn't have made humans to be such klutzy clowns.
Tom D 38 reviewer rep | 1,902 forum posts
12:06 a.m. on October 17, 2006 (EDT)
Re: Knotty question!
I have a little book called "The Book of Knots" with more knots in it than you can imagine-well, 200 of them anyway.
One knot that is handy is the trucker's hitch. It creates a pully and is handy for tying down almost anything. It's a good knot to know if you use a tarp or find yourself in windy conditions where you need to put some tension on your guylines.
Blackbeard 0 reviewer rep | 181 forum posts
5:01 a.m. on October 17, 2006 (EDT)
Re: Knotty question!
Tom,
I've seen the book before. It's a nice book. I used to be a Cub Scout and Boy Scout and knew some of these things years ago. Thanks
Bill,
You have a great poker face. I have a very dry sense of humor (I'm told). Your point of worrying has been made before, obviously, and you were right, so I don't worry as much.
My questions don't seem to carry the heftiness of others, but they are real questions. Sometimes I ask them in such a way that makes them sound less sincere than they really are. At work, when teaching the younger members of my profession, this type of questions works to make them think a little harder, and not just give a "standard" answer to a question. I'll be more straightforward here onwards.
I hide out to learn. (You know the saying about "If I'm the only one talking, I'll never learn anyting new). I'll try to contribute more and ask less. You always give such detailed answers, I guess it's hard for me to believe you might be jesting. I certainly don't mind when I get those type of answers.
Thanks for all of the suggestions about the guy cord from you all. I'll look up each knot.
One last statement and I'll go. I have met a hiker at work (a real person), and have noticed about him, and all the others here on the list, that there is such a strong passion for this. I like that about this stuff.
Steve.
Bill S REVIEW CORPS 4,552 reviewer rep | 6,037 forum posts
11:36 a.m. on October 18, 2006 (EDT)
Re: Knotty question!
Clue - terminology like "thingie" defined as a "technical term" Or "you can even tie a turk's head if so inclined" (Really? Would anyone actually go to the effort of tying such a fancy, albeit artistic and decorative, knot for just pitching a tent?)
Well, yes, there is some "truth" buried in the delivery. But I look at woodsy things as fun, although I know there are some folks out there who are "deadly serious" (threatening super deadly consequences for even minor glitches). We see them post here from time to time. Like a certain fellow who kept insisting that only a certain brand of outdoor gear was any good and that all others (his words) "are lying" about their gear and methods of making it. Sigh!
My serious point is - whatever works for you is perfect for you (until you try something that works better for you). If you think about the possible consequences of something not working and include plans B, C, and D in your preparations, you are unlikely to suffer serious consequences. (example - what if I leave my rain gear at home, but the forecast is wrong and it dumps a major thunderstorm? Well, maybe I can use that plastic garbage bag as an emergency rain cover. Or maybe I just get wet, which doesn't matter much, since it is summer and I will be only a half mile from the car. OTOH, if I were to be 20 miles out on a 50 mile loop and it is late Fall, where the "rain" might turn into snow, then Plan B better be more sound than a plastic garbage bag. In other words, if the consequences would be minor, then don't sweat it. But if they would be major or catastrophic, then Plans B, C, and D better be very robust).
The idea of "there are lots of ways to guy a tent" is to say that there is no "official" method. There are numerous ways, all with advantages and disadvantages. The little metal and plastic "thingies" are an alternative that adds cost, and I find break or get lost a lot (especially for the Scouts). So use one of the knots (tautline, for example) that will always work and won't get lost (unless you lose the whole guyline - gulp! - or worse, the whole tent - gasp!). Take your choice. It doesn't really matter.
Oh, about your questions - ya know, there are at least a hundred lurkers out there with the same question. If you don't step forward to ask it, then potentially hundreds of people out there will continue in ignorance. To quote someone "the only stupid/dumb question is the one not asked."
Al dennis
11:41 a.m. on October 29, 2006 (EST)
I make a loop at one end of the guyline with a simple overhand knot and then put that loop through the loop sewn on the tent, feed the guyline through the loop on it's own end and then pull the line snug. Fold up the guyline and tie it into snug but not tight overhand knot to store it attached to the tent. I make the loop at the end of the guyline large enough to pull the rest of the guyline through it when it's in the storage knot. If you have a situation where you need to use the guyline tie it to the stake with a bunch of hitches. The wind will pull taught line hitches and other tightening devices loose after a while.
When you do run into that wind situation the guylines will be handy. You can easily remove a guyline from down wind side of the tent and move it to the side getting blasted with the wind if necessary. The wind can pull out a single guyline and stake fairly easliy but I've found that two lines that are angled out at about a 45 degrees right at the corner of the tent getting hit hardest usually holds even when the stakes aren't in very secure ground. Like in sand.
The only other thing I can think of is to push the guyline stake in the ground so that the top end is at ground level, nothing sticking up, if you can.
This is a really simple method and you should be able to do all of the moving and tieing in the dark, wind and/or rain, when you usually find that you need to do it. Of course you can use fancier knots but make sure you can tie them outside the comfort of your own home. You know what I mean.
Al Dennis
SteveTheFolkie 0 reviewer rep | 239 forum posts
12:49 p.m. on November 1, 2006 (EST)
taut line hitch at the TENT end - bowline at the STAKE end -rather unconventional? Perhaps - BUT you don't need to bend down as far to adjust the tension this way AND you don't end up with the adjustable portion of the loop (around the peg) hammered into the ground - where it won't adjust until you yank the peg out! - been doing that combo for many, many years ....
Al Dennis
12:19 a.m. on November 2, 2006 (EST)
Unconventional but it sounds like a very good method, never though of doing it that way before and I might try it. You must have better luck with those taught line hitches holding under stress than I have though. Rope gets wet and/or the wind jerks away at them for while and they seem to slip a little bit for me.
SteveTheFolkie 0 reviewer rep | 239 forum posts
7:38 a.m. on November 2, 2006 (EST)
"You must have better luck with those taught line hitches holding under stress than I have though. Rope gets wet and/or the wind jerks away at them for while and they seem to slip a little bit for me" - take an extra bite before you finish off the knot - especially with nylon cord. They used to hold great on hemp rope - but that smooth parachute cord can be a problem. So you end up with two wraps on the inside of the loop (stake-side) and two on the outside (standing rope side) rather than one - works a charm!
Bill S REVIEW CORPS 4,552 reviewer rep | 6,037 forum posts
2:22 p.m. on November 2, 2006 (EST)
As Steve says, more wraps = more friction. Nothing says you have to quit on a tautline with 2+1 wraps.
But ... the tent fabric itself tends to stretch and shrink with temperature and moisture. Compare the tent's tautness at night and at midday in the sun without adjusting the guy lines. With a well-tied tautline (or a good tightening device, or even a "permanently" tied guyline), you can see a fairly substantial change in tautness of the tent fabric over the course of a day/night and with the condensation/evaporation of dew. The guyline itself will also exhibit these changes.
But then, that's why you need an adjustable guyline. There is a good discussion of rope construction and materials in Clyde Soles' book "Knots for the Outdoors".
Al Dennis
12:39 a.m. on November 3, 2006 (EST)
I learned to tie a tautline in the Boy scouts in the early 60's and it was 3 + 2 wraps, plus an extra hitch to secure it if necessary. Yea they work fine. I don't worry about adjusting guylines much though because I move often. It's all all about hunker down during the bad weather/wind event and then move on when it clears up. I guess you use what you find practical and usefull for what you do. That's why even though I learned some cool knots when I was young and in Boy Scouts and commercial fishing with my stepdad on Lake Huron, I prefer to keep it simple. I just use a couple of knots and I can tie them when I'm tired with cold numb hands, gloves on and with my wife standing behind me urging me to hurry because she's cold and wants to get into her sleeping bag.
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